@allisonwyss @orionkidder @joehumphrey

[R]eaders really do need breaks! And they like breaks! And sometimes it means they come back to the story even more ready for it.

Not disagreeing, but I believe it important to force readers to choose.

I don't often stop reading a story never to pick it up again, but one thing -- other than it being a really bad story -- that will make me stop reading is a writer resolving stuff before a chapter break. Given a choice of stopping, I might.

Stop.

Permanently.

This stuff I'm discussing here I don't do consciously, I'll admit. This is an analysis of my writing. I'm an unabashed pantster, under the spell of loquacious characters living their lives breathlessly, barreling along toward their destiny (writing toward a known ending). I throw breaks when it feels right, but not after plot or character resolution!

Except... After the climax or denouement (penultimate chapter), and again at the end of the epilogue (end of story).

For me, some of what flags that I can chapter break is a sense of mystery, foreboding the character might be doing the wrong thing, or a cliffhanger in the action that will proceed subsequently at another time or place. Something to be curious about.

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@joehumphrey @orionkidder @allisonwyss

[difference between] storytelling and story time?

CW: tM;dr? (Too Meta, Didn't Read?) 😋​

I really want to make story time one word, but that would be overloading another word used in the context of reading to children.

Both words are a meta concept.

Storytelling is how you communicate the events and ideas of the story. Story time is how you communicate how time passes in the story.

Story time can be:

• Textual, as in, "After dragging the all the stupid bricks up the hill," or "I kept on looking up from the book at the clock, my muscles twitching, as the second hand barely ticked toward noon."

• A description that requires more attention by the reader, slowing them down, or so concisely powerful it thrills and speeds them up.

• Some dialogue of multiple characters breathlessly interrupting each other, or droning on and on.

• Or... it could be a blank centered line with a # or a ##, a chapter break, or a novel composed of multiple books. I'll quote Allison responding to Orion:

Pause and consider--that's perfect. I think sometimes metafictional moments inside text do the same thing. As do other sorts of breaks.

• Others (definitely).

I recently wrote a novel that consisted of four books (180K total). Each book started with a cliffhanger chapter about the situation where the next book begins and the current ends. The rest of each "book" that followed all leading up to that cliffhanger/resolution book transition. Such things messes with how the reader perceives time passing in the story. FYI, one book starts with a fertilizer bomb about to explode. How the MC got herself into that one drives you to the end of that book!

Before you cry foul, I've recently watched a number of dramas that use this same 1-2-3 format: cliffhanger hook, story to the cliffhanger, then cliffhanger resolution transition to next episode. It works well for #mystery and #thriller genres. The last was a Korean gothic romance titled, "It's Okay to Not Be Okay." Excellent, by the way. I highly recommend it.

This is why I call story time perceptual manipulation, though, of course, storytelling does make you hallucinate being somewhere you are not, so it qualifies as perceptual manipulation, also.

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@orionkidder @joehumphrey @allisonwyss Very interesting topics in this thread. I realize I am late to it, but a few things:

Workshops actually can be great! There's just a lot that can also go wrong.

This is very true. When I saw a person reduced to tears, I started prefacing critiques with: A critique is what one person wanted to say having read your story and thinking about your words. Some or none of it may be applicable or make sense, or they have missed the point entirely. It's only what they understood. You are under no obligation to accept any of it.

How do you think about chapters?

• Cliffhangers.
• A breaking point that a reader could choose to ignore.
• A way of organizing a story into comprehensible chunks.

Mine are usually at least 750 words long, but some are 10K.

Sometimes, with novelettes or short novellas, I have no chapter breaks and let the story run breathlessly to the end. I'm thinking of one that took place over about a week, and even dreams played a part. This is the experience of the character in a ticking clock situation of a corrupting curse who needs to win over a hostile individual that could beat her and take over as ruler.

The examples I’ve seen of anarchist texts that allegedly don’t tell you what conclusions to draw from the text are either incoherent or deeply manipulative.

It sounds like it would be either incoherent or steam of consciousness slice of life stories. You can learn something from wandering, if directed I suppose. I did like My Dinner with Andre. That I learned something is the highest praise I can give a story.

That said, I do have one novel that in the end I've carefully crafted the main character to be either mentally ill (hearing voices) or to be a actual shaman who speaks to spirits. I make sure nothing she learns couldn't have been deduced, though you'd have to be a careful reader. It's up to the reader to sit back with the book and decide which they're more comfortable with... in a hard science fiction book to boot.

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@marnanel Here's some unsolicited #writingAdvice about getting editorial attention. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.

[S]ometimes the rewrites are necessary to get the editor to look at it in the first place

I sense you are talking about trying to interest an agent or when submitting over the transom (when submitting an unsolicited manuscript).

This is so very difficult. Rewriting and rewriting a story when you haven't yet sold and are receiving rejection notices will make you crazy. It did me. Better to focus your polishing effort on what is needed. If an editor likes your story, they will be willing to give you an "editorial order" to make it sellable.

Having gone through this process before and after commercial publication, here are my thoughts. What follows is NOT a rule to follow, but what one author experienced and understands. It likely repeats advice from dozens of writers, so sorry if it is nothing new (I shy away these days from fundamental writing advice.) Decide for yourself if it is helpful.

You need pay special attention to:

• The first three pages of the novel.
• Your best middle chapter.
• The last three pages of the novel.
• A brief outline or treatment

This is what the editorial staff/agent wants and will look at, and might only glance at. Time is money, and if they don't know you they don't know you and will cut you no slack.

Concentrate on the first double-spaced 1/2 page of text in your novel. Either your character or your plot must make the reader want to continue to the next page. This, of course, is the hook. Be honest with yourself. If this was someone else's book and you were paying $3.99 or $12.99, would you be drawn in? If and only if those first paragraphs are good will the editor read a few more pages. If you are going to rewrite anywhere, this is probably the place to do it. That, or maybe search through the story until you find the real beginning. There should be action or emotion or a high stakes situation, or maybe a mind-blowing idea. Beware of front-loading description; if you do, it must be mind-blowingly evocative. The beginning three pages is where you demonstrate you are a capable author.

Next, concentrate on the middle chapter. Rewrite it if necessary until is shines. Ensure by any means that there are no typos or grammar issues. Demonstrate the pacing and the character development, or make the reader cry.

Yes, those nasty beastly editors read the last page(!), and sometimes they read it before the beginning. Same criteria goes for the beginning as the end. Make those last three pages tight and powerful, or at least expressive.

I suck at outlines. Treatments are hard, too. Regardless of your ability, write either summary-type so you concisely express the character's dilemma and exactly how they solve it, or set up the plot points and how they all resolve. You must reveal everything, and be brief at the same time. Don't hide anything. Give away everything. It's a treatment/outline, not a mystery story. Unless the story is amazing, if the editor feels you're hiding something they will assume it's something that wrecks the story. No reputable publisher will take your idea and have someone else write it. It's not worth it (legally or reputation-wise) and there is a glut of stories for them to evaluate.

This advice works for any novel, because you don't want to make yourself crazy by rewriting endlessly. I admit that it is of minimum utility for fan-fic. For self-publication, except for the treatment (which could be trimmed to a jacket blurb/long description), it probably amounts to a best practice.

What's important is getting to a point where you can look at a story and recognize you've written crap, or that parts are bad. Better than endless rewriting in the beginning of a career is to to write another story, then another, then... Practice makes perfect.

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