@eri On the contrary, if you need HTTPS it means you're using the wrong network.

The #clearnet should be deprecated.

And HTTPS on #I2P & #Tor (among others) is risky for a number of reasons (especially with enabled OCSP querying).

@wiredfire @charliejane VPNs won't do (many deliberately cooperate with Five Eyes authorities anyway), this is a "the #clearnet has completely failed" scenario.

@theresnotime > The option for corporations to refuse to serve
The internet and other similar networks are essentially critical infrastructure and required for full social opportunities, but at the same time the #clearnet is unsafe.

So ensuring access to all (infrastructure is a public good) and ensuring we don't misuse it is important.

@theresnotime No application or service should be directly doing anything with the #clearnet.

#MassSurveillance and #censorship is way too easy on it because of its structure and it can't really be fixed at the physical/infrastructure level, even if the will was present (and it most certainly isn't).

@theresnotime The option for corporations to refuse to serve say... critics of monopolies though is one of the many reasons networking infrastructure should be nationalized infrastructure.

The insane way Canada and USA does things right now gives an absurd amount of power to private monopolies that do not have their users' best interests at heart.

As for the routing part, it's really just that we're all idiots for relying on the #clearnet as anything more than a routing layer.

@dragonmantank
Strongly recommend #TorBrowser w highest Safety level and #uBlock added, as per how #TailOS provide Tor to #journalists. Great for browsing the #clearnet and onion sites. Put the #NoScript addon button in the topbar to easy enable js for trusted sites.

For #I2P we recommend a Firefox based browser that is hardened like TorBrowser. A good place to start is the spyware.neocities.org site, and the Archlinux wiki (surprisingly), on hardening Firefox-based browsers.

@solene @abcdw @SuperDicq

> this would only work if you know exactly what inputs/outputs you will need

Could the installer tell the person which packages or sources a person will need to download and put on USB or DVD to perform the install? The person can then use their initiative to fetch the files and put them on disk.

Upon inserting the disk the installer looks for such files to verify them and proceed with the install?

Going on #clearnet gives data to repressive entities unnecessarily.

@accretionist @tante You know, there's this, but then #I2P somehow manages to do better with a fraction of the funding, by simply giving up on the pretense the #clearnet was not doomed from the start as anything other than a transport layer due to its inherent design flaws.

I2P also has more than one implementation, significantly reducing bus factor.

And then there's also #Veilid, which occupies a somewhat weird in-between space.

@ellenor2000 @Linza @internetarchive @brewsterkahle Ultimately going to be necessary I think.

The #clearnet is fucked and will remain so until we #AbolishCopyright at minimum.

@toolbear @brewsterkahle Extremely important to start porting things to #anonymous networks like #veilid and #I2P (or eventual better ones that better handle mitigating timing & traffic analysis).

The #clearnet is profoundly hostile to any such #prosocial efforts, useful #P2P won't be safe on it.

@ellenor2000 Aye, and yes.

A lot of good ideas there, and unlike *many* other protocols and standards, it lends itself exceedingly well to #AsynchronousCommunication, as it was in fact a major design consideration.

It makes its use away from the #clearnet, or indeed away from any network or peer outside of occasional synchronization, a definite option.

@mariusor @efi @schappi The domain should be treated much like a phone number or DHCP-assigned address, a convenient routing short-hand that shouldn't be relied on in the long-term.

This would have some very good implications for portability of instances away from the #clearnet as well.

@efi @schappi Impersonation, but it'd break pretty instantly since the instance no longer has the same key.

In fact, anyone who saw the previous version would have a pretty hard time even intentionally federating with the new one.

It's one of the other major issues with #clearnet domain names not canonically being remotely unique over time while assuming in one's program that they are.

@moof @efi @darkphoenix Perhaps not the same reasons as me, but having to get #clearnet hosting has some pretty nasty deanonymization / #privacy risks and some considerable costs.

The assumption of constant end-to-end connectivity also greatly complicates multi-network uses such as say... hosting on #Tor, #I2P and #Freenet (for example) at the same time. Or hosting primarily on I2P but intending to interact with clearnet instances.

In general, #AsynchronousCommunication sadly was ignored.

@jonny So, a bit like #BiglyBT nearly transparently supporting #I2P as well as #clearnet #torrenting?

#torrent

@jeffcliff @brewsterkahle One of the issues with seeding #LibGen or #SciHub on the #clearnet is that in some countries like mine that is actively hazardous.

As of the last time I checked, there's no prison involved, but the monetary penalties are steep-enough to dissuade the non well-off and the #copyright & publisher cartels are petty enough to bother with lawsuits with a guaranteed inability to recover legal fees.

@disabled Interfering with basic infrastructure routing isn't okay.

Of course this whole issue flows from the #clearnet's clear (hah) inadequacy at being anything more than an inter-network transport layer (yeah it's literally in the name: internet, it's a routing layer not a messaging layer) which shouldn't be directly be used by any program, but unfortunately the majority have made and continue to make this mistake.

> Misskey also has extremely strict rules against audio in video because of Japanese copyright laws

Yet another reason the widespread hosting on the #clearnet is a bad idea.

So long as we haven't gone with #AbolishCopyright, it is a bad idea to do anything on it.

In gaining additional #privacy from the easy #anonymity, we also get to disregard stupid laws that aren't worthy of any respect.

Prompted by @RehnSturm256 (https://shota.house/objects/1b82e635-82ae-49ab-84f5-5b25ef64f79a)

Turns out the IWF gleefully reinforces the ecosystem the corposcum have put in place.

It's all by design of course. It puts a minimum & mandatory price-tag on community-hosting on the #clearnet and if you don't go along with the extortion you face the risk of serious legal consequences & prison the moment a user or paid provocateur posts any CP on your services that evades your notice for long-enough.

https://gleasonator.com/objects/d38e7709-fb83-4d14-a227-d8ffef2091fb

@coolboymew @alex @graf@poa.st @Moon And once more I'm vindicated in my statements that hosting anything #federated or #p2p on the #clearnet as non-corporations is unsafe and made intentionally so too.

(That specific incident feels like old news at this point, but anyway.)