It's getting hot in here, fuel cell truck edition

#toyota #usa #unitedstates #fuelcells #fuelcell #fcev #trucks #evs #electricvehicles #electrictrucks #shipping #fuel #energy #decarbonization #vehicles #automotive #autoindustry

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/09/toyota-plunges-into-crowded-hydrogen-fuel-cell-truck-pool-with-a-bang/

It's getting hot in here, fuel cell truck edition

#toyota #usa #unitedstates #fuelcells #fuelcell #fcev #trucks #evs #electricvehicles #electrictrucks #shipping #fuel #energy #decarbonization #vehicles #automotive #autoindustry

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/09/toyota-plunges-into-crowded-hydrogen-fuel-cell-truck-pool-with-a-bang/

An Italian study found the Battery Electric Buses tested have tank-to-wheel (TTW) efficiencies of 137 and 153.80kWh per 100km, while the two hydrogen FCEB models had average efficiencies of 310.24 and 335.75km per 100km respectively. Figures that are between two and 2.45 times lower than the battery buses.

“Data suggests that driving FCEBs is between 2.12 times to 2.56 times more expensive per km than driving a BEB"

#hydrogen #fcev #fceb #bev #beb #transport #Italy
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/real-world-figures-hydrogen-buses-cost-2-3-times-more-to-run-per-km-than-battery-electric-ones-says-italian-study/2-1-1511785

Interesting electric motor innovation which doesn’t require rare earth magnets.
#BEV
#FCEV

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2023/09/20230902-i2sm.html

Ok, Let’s talk about #hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (#FCEV) as an alternative to Battery Electric Vehicles (#BEV).

A FCEV uses the same electric motors as BEVs but gets its power from chemically reacting H₂ with O₂ from the air in a way that produces an electric current - a fuel cell. None of this is new technology Fuel Cells were a mature and reliable power source by the time the Apollo program was landing people on the moon. The issue with fuel cells is the same as with Enteral Combustion Engines(ICE) they are most efficient in a very narrow energy band great if the goal is to power the life support on a space craft, but not for the extremely variable loads needed to drive a car.

For this reason, FCEVs are hybrids with the same Li batteries as BEVs and ICE Hybrids like the Prius. Like ICE Hybrids they use the battery to accelerate and as storage for regenerative breaking with the fuel cell providing a constant recharge.

Why I’m skeptical of FCEVs

1) Greenwashing Hydrogen. FCEV advocates will point out that the only tailpipe emission is water vapor. The question is where does the hydrogen come from. By far the least expensive way to produce hydrogen gas is to crack the hydrogen atoms off of petrochemical hydrocarbons. As a mater of basic chemistry it takes far less energy to crack hydrocarbons than it does to electrolize water. And unlike the electrical grid where technologies like solar, wind and nuclear are already deployed and becoming an increasing share of our electric grid. Processes to produce hydrogen from water at anything close the the cost to strip it off fossil fuels is in the same development stage as cold fusion. at least for the next decade green hydrogen will be a premium product only available to the wealthiest buyers.

2) Hydrogen storage is hard. To fit enough hydrogen on a moving passenger car for it to have a 300 mile range requires pressures of 10,000psi (700 bar). The kinds of pressure vessels that can safely handle that pressure are expensive, and need regular inspection. Having had to keep a compressed air tank of just 200 psi in a fixed certified, I can tell you that there will be significant costs to regularly inspecting a 10,000 psi tank full of flammable gas that needs to survive a collision with one of the 2023 lineup of full sized puck up trucks.

But that is just the start. Hydrogen leaks. No matter how good you think your valves and fittings are the smallest molecule in the universe stored under huge pressure will find a way out. Ask anyone who has experience in the space industry where hydrogen is already the fuel of choice and they will tell you that hydrogen leaks are just a fact that has to be engineered around. On a vehicle this will be a small annoyance but at a fueling station this will be significant. The farther Hydrogen is transported and the longer it must be stored the higher the losses. There is also the energy factor of compressing that gas. To the best of my knowledge the prodigious amount of work done to pressurize the fuel is never recovered

FCEVs and BEVs both started to be produced about a decade ago, and while Tesla has scaled out its supercharger network world wide in that time. Hydrogen has less than 100 filling stations all in California. While these stations can fill a car in 5 minutes, they can only fill 2 to 5 vehicles before spending an hour refilling their high pressure storage tanks. One could argue that all Hydrogen needs is an eccentric billionaire ready to lose money for a decade building out infrastructure, however I think the infrastructure challenges with hydrogen exceed even Musk levels of ambition.

3) Cost. My M3 already costs noticeably less per mile that the equivalent ICE vehicle. Baring a huge technological leap, hydrogen will always be more expensive. because the least expensive hydrogen is processed out of the same fuel that runs ICE cars and provides less energy per molecule than those hydrocarbons when reacted with O₂ hydrogen cannot help but be a more expensive fuel.

So why are hydrogen FCEV still a thing? Well the vehicles are lighter, fueling times are comparable to gasoline, and the petrochemical industry is desperate for them to succeed. The oil industry can see the writing on the wall as states like California will ban new ICE vehicle sales in 2030. While holding out hope for a green hydrogen future a generation away, they can continue to have a market for their product as gasoline and diesel phase out. “Hydrogen will become the green fuel of the future” explain their sock puppets knowing that dirty hydrogen from their product will always have a price advantage. And to be fair, turning a mobile source into a point source of emissions does provide the opportunity for carbon capture (so called Blue Hydrogen), but all this still add even more cost while BEVs already have a price advantage in their fuel - not to mention that every home in the developed world has the infrastructure to charge BEVs.

Why write all this? Because when you get down to it most of the #FUD being spread around #EV s is coming from FCEV advocates who are trying not to let hydrogen become the betamax of the transition away from ICE transportation. In doing so they are making it harder than necessary for the world to move away from ICE transportation.

References:
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/33408/why-we-still-cant-deliver-on-the-promise-of-hydrogen-cars

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41103863/hydrogen-cars-fcev/

Tags:
#GreenHydrogen #BlueHydrogen #ClimateCrisis #fossilefuel #greenwashing #Tesla #Toyota #Mirai #electrolysis

@Hypx I look forward to this bright and glorious future! I will be at the front of the line for the first viable super capacitor car, but I will be shocked if I can buy one by 2033.

However usually when people talk alternatives to BEVs that might hit the market in the next 10 years, they are hinting at #FCEV technology. While I'd love to be proven wrong, I just don't think hydrogen is going to be a better ICE alternative. The engineering challenges of storing molecular hydrogen are too bulky and expensive, and the fuel itself is - almost by definition - going to be more expensive per mile that hydrocarbons.

Do you have some other technology in mind?

10 car queue.

1h 20 minute wait

40 minute round journey to the pump.

5 attempts to authenticate.

$132 to refill. 310 miles range.

Hydrogen Infrastructure Failure.

#hydrogen #failure #HydrogenHype #FCEV

https://youtu.be/yukuAn-c-3c?si=PIBy2TVTHBDzdVvY

@hansbot

I still don't see the benefit of #FCEV even for long range #train journeys. Add #pantograph charging capabilities to the #BEV train. The whole journey doesn't have to be electrified, just parts of it to extend the range and possibly recharge the batteries en route.

This market analysis makes sense to me. #Hydrogen is only a viable option for transport whenever batteries are technically not feasible. The cost of operating and maintaining #FCEV technology almost always outweighs the benefits – and there’s no reason to believe that scaling up will fundamentally change the outcome
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/hydrogen-will-almost-always-lose-out-to-battery-electric-in-german-rail-transport-train-manufacturer/2-1-1504868

Israeli Researchers Produce Green Hydrogen with 90% Efficiency
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/israeli-researchers-produce-green-hydrogen-with-90-efficiency-without-electrolysis-218644.html
#ycombinator #hydrogen #fuel_cells #FCEV #Israel

@Hypx Mileage improvements with ICE cars since 1960s has come from weight reduction: plastic, Aluminum. Batteries inherently need to carry all their chemicals in electrodes. Always = lower kWh/kg than fuels. Higher power store weight = less net energy for moving rest of vehicle payload. Tesla 3 battery pack is 0.15kWh/kg. Toyota Mirai tank+H2 is 1.88kWh (electrical via FC)/kg. This means the FCEV uses less KWh just to move its own energy store than a BEV.
#BEV
#FCEV

I'm #newhere (#neuhier), so let's start with an #introduction.
My name is Damian Backes and I'm the manager for the Research Area Energy Management & Drivetrains at the Institute for Automotive Engineering (#ika) - #RWTH Aachen University. So my posts will likely be about #mobility, especially #embobilty, #bev and #fcev in general, #powertrain|s and their components, #energy and #thermalManagement as well as #climatisation.

Some interesting numbers. 100kWh renewable => 35kgCO2 nat gas = 290km small gasoline car = 470km Toyota FCEV on SMR H2 = 270 km Toyota FCEV green H2 (gas->gas exchange) = 770km Tesla 3 (non winter gas->gas exchange) = 300 km Tesla 3 (non winter gas->coal exchange)=400kWh heat pump heat. Notice the FCEV quirk. Comes about because SMR is a lower carbon way to make H2 than slapping electrolyser on existing grid.
#FCEV
#greenhydrogen
/4

Imagine Ontario were to built a non fossil grid with steady output at 2022’s peak of 23000MW. That would require 201TWh/yr. 78TWh/yr extra non fossil power would be needed. 15 TWh/yr to cover gas, leaving 63 TWh/yr available to valley fill with electrolysers. That would produce enough H2 to fuel 168 billion km in Toyota Mirai FCEV. Pretty close to the 200 billion km/yr driven today.
#FCEV
#greenhydrogen

https://www.ieso.ca/en/Corporate-IESO/Media/Year-End-Data

Continuing my previous toot; Ontario produced 14300 kWhr of wind power in 2022. That was used to offset gas generation on grid (0.35kgCO2/kWhr) for a savings of 5billion kg CO2/yr. If instead Ontario had dedicated all that energy to green hydrogen destined for personal vehicle transport ( 19kg CO2/100km) they could have saved 7.2billion kg CO2 with Toyota Miria FCEV driven 38 billion km/yr.
#greenhydrogen
#FCEV

@Hypx Locomotives emit 2125kg CO2/100km. Ballard supplied 6x200kW FC for original CP rail locomotive conversion. Assuming that this is equivalent to 6 FC buses that would be 45kg H2/100km. If that was SMR H2 it would be 450kg CO2/100km or nearly 5 times better than diesel.
#FCEV

@Hypx This is a great Canadian success story from both dimensions. This is exactly the type of hydrogen vehicle application that makes climate sense. Which we knew back in 1982. Unfortunately we got into our climate crisis in large part because of broken price signals surrounding fossil fuels. Until those price signals are fixed these projects will never be cost competitive with status quo.

#FCEV

@icanbob Systems perspective clearly shows #BEV is the inferior solution compared to #FCEV https://muratk5n.codeberg.page/en/2022/11/battery-electric.html

New shot of green hydrogen adrenaline for US truck maker

#greenhydrogen #hydrogen #trucks #electrictrucks #fuelcells #fcev #startups #greeneconomy #hydrogeneconomy #energy #renewableenergy #energytransition

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/13/nikola-resurrection-only-tip-of-bosch-green-hydrogen-scheme/

New shot of green hydrogen adrenaline for US truck maker

#greenhydrogen #hydrogen #trucks #electrictrucks #fuelcells #fcev #startups #greeneconomy #hydrogeneconomy #energy #renewableenergy #energytransition

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/13/nikola-resurrection-only-tip-of-bosch-green-hydrogen-scheme/