Amendment 153 and groupings. Pam Duncan-Glancy. This amendment. This is something of a technically-minded amendment that moves the act of acting on secondary legislation to the affirmative procedure in regards to changes to the GRA procedure made by the Registrar General. This means that any changes must be approved by Parliament as opposed to approval by Ministers. The current draft has the use of the Registrar General's discretion on the change of procedure subject to agreement by a Minister in some cases (the negative procedure) and subject to Parliament in others (the affirmative procedure)

Minister speaks noting that a separate Committee has examined this and come to the conclusion that the balance in the Bill is correct, and that any change subject to the negative procedure can still be debated and voted on by Parliament as a whole and does not support Amendment 153

Pam Duncan-Glancy winds up the debate on this Amendment and indicates that she will push the Amendment to a vote

Which she promptly does, resulting in a vote. Amendment 153 falls 3–4

Amendment 28 not moved and falls

Amendment 35 not moved and falls

Amendment 36 not moved and falls

Amendment 113 not moved and falls

Amendment 154 moved to a vote. Passed unanimously

Amendment 82 moved to a vote. Passed unanimously

Amendment 17 not moved and falls

Section 17 agreed to

Schedule 7 agreed to

Amendment 29 not moved and falls

Amendment 31 moved to a vote. Falls 2–5

Amendment 30 not moved and falls

Amendment 155 moved and voted on. Falls 2–5

Section 18 agreed to

Section 19 agreed to

Long Title agreed to

And that completes the Committee's deliberations of amendments to the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill (Stage 2)

They will now redraft the Bill with the accepted amendments and pass it back to the Debating Chamber for Stage 3 which will occur at a later date

So, that's for me for now. I'll do wash-up tomorrow and go through what the whole thing means. Thankfully the amendments accepted are (for the most part) sensible

23/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

(Jaz has had her bath and is ready to commence. Somehow the relaxation of hot water has bounced her brain in the opposite direction resulting in fizzy happy funny hyperactive Jaz in full chaos-goblin mode who's now referring to herself in the third person. You have been warned 🤣​)

22/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

(taking a bit of break here as my brain is melting under the load. We are near the end of the hearing though so it shouldn't take me long to get through it

And then after that, wash-up)

21/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

The 'phobes in the Committee Room keep banging on about "loopholes" allowing cis people to apply for a GRC because something, something, they can commit a crime or something

sigh Do you know what a GRC changes? Your sex for marriage and death. That's it. It's a personal matter of recognition. There is no crime that cannot be committed by a woman. There is no crime that cannot be committed by a man. Why? Because aiding and abetting a crime means being charged and convicted with the principal crime

Amendment 147 withdrawn and falls

Amendment 148 as debated previously moved to a vote. Falls 2–4–1

Amendment 149 not moved and falls

Amendment 16 not moved and falls

Section 16 agreed to

Amendment 26 moved to a vote. Falls 2–5

Amendment 111 not moved and falls

Amendment 151 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 152 not moved and falls

Amendment 156 moved to a vote. Passed unanimously

Amendment 112 not moved and falls

Amendment 79 moved to a vote. Passed unanimously

Amendment 80 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 81 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 27 not moved and falls

20/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

And the speaker immediately gives the game away when she uses the term "a person registering as trans"

Nope, we don't access a GRC to "register as trans". And that you think of it as a 'Pink Triangle' scheme says that you should have nothing to do with this. Fuck the fuck off, thank you kindly

Pam Gosal now speaking on both amendments, so I'm skipping over that part, lol

Minister now responds. Points out that the draft Bill already includes a section requiring annual reporting on applications for a GRC.

Highlights that amendment 149 is pointless as yo don't need a GRC to access healthcare

(Going to have to end this Oot! as the text field box has slowed to a crawl and the tab needs reloading)

19/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Amendment 147 and grouping called. Debate begins with Pam Duncan-Glancy speaking for

This amendment is to create a data-gathering exercise in regards to the number of number of applications made, granted, and rejected, along with relevant reasons

Amendment 149 and grouping. Sarah Boyack speaking to the Amendment which would require the gathering of data on how the Act (if it becomes law) impacts trans healthcare waiting times (it won't, or may even decrease it, despite the claims of the speaker). Points out there's an issue with accessing specific health-care (cervical smears, etc) if somebody changes their sex as NHS systems are woefully inadequate (true). Speaker entirely fails to point out that in fact trans people change their sex on their medical records without a GRC, so that's an issue immaterial to the Bill. It is actually important, but nothing to do with the Bill (and no, transphobes, removing the ability to change sex isn't legal as it's a breach of Article 8 human rights. Sucks to be you, get over it)

Amendment 149 would also require the gathering of numbers of sex at birth and acquired gender for the purposes access to and provision of healthcare (see above), and the commission of specific offences

The slight problem with that? Wholefully unlawful. It's a breach of the Article 8 human right to privacy to try and distinguish sex and gender in such a way. A person's acquired gender for the purposes of the GRA is that person's sex. There is no differentiation between the two. The entire point that the registry of birth is also changed to reflect that (if possible to do) is because a person's sex at birth becomes that of their acquired gender should a GRC be issued and therefore attempting to treat those two things as if they were separate would immediately fall foul of the very judgement that required the UK to recognise a person's change of sex in the first place

18/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Aaaaand the Committee has descended into party political point scoring rather than, you know, scrutinising amendments to the Bill

And finally

Amendment 23 withdrawn their motion after all that bulls*t from Rachael Hamilton. Yeah, transphobic posturing that was intended to do nothing but deliberately created deception and lies. What a waste of everybody's time. Again, an election yeeting seems to be in order. Amendment 23 falls

Amendment 24 not moved and falls (see observation on 23)

Amendment 25 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 74 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 75 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 76 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 101 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 103 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 104 not moved and falls.

Amendment 136 moved to a vote. Passes 6–1

Amendment 137 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 138 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 139 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 140 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

Amendment 141 moved to a vote. Passes unanimously

Amendment 142 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 143 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 144 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 105 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 106 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 78 moved to a vote. Passes unanimously

Amendment 107 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 108 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 109 not moved to a vote and falls

Amendment 15 not moved to a vote and falls

Section 15 agreed to

Amendment 37 moved to a vote. Passes 5–0–2 (5 for, 0 against, 2 abstentions)

Amendment 110 moved to a vote. Falls 2–4–1

Amendment 145 moved to a vote. Passes unanimously

Amendment 146 moved to a vote. Falls 3–4

17/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

G_ddess help us, Rachael Hamilton yet again beating the dead horse of "but doesn't a GRC change a person's sex for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010"

Yep, but not not in the way you keep trying to claim. Sex is a PC protected against on the fact of a person's sex and the perception of a person's sex. Holding or not holding a GRC is immaterial in such regards

For those who don't follow this, the current Gender Recognition Act 2004 changes a person's sex for all purposes in law (minus primogeniture law). The Bill doesn't change that. Again, the EqA2010 has worked alongside GRA2004 for 12 years

Jamie Greene doing the centrist "let's all compromise on human rights!" dance. How about we don't and instead yeet you into irrelevance, eh?

Minister points out the bleeding obvious. Under GRA2004 obtaining a GRC changes a person's sex for all purposes of the law and nothing in this BIll changes that and that Holyrood cannot change any part or function of the Equality Act 2010 as it lacks the legislative powers to do so

And they're still banging on about this. It's been about an hour, so far, I think? I'm not covering the bits that are already summarised above so you don't have to suffer, but dear G_dess, lets move on with this

Finally, wrap-up speech on amendment 23 and grouping. And that's done, lol. It's just the standard TERF dog-whistles

16/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

And we're back again

Amendment 103 and grouping is next up. Brian Whittle to speak on these amendments. This amendment is again on the inclusion of trans people in sporting activities

Again, nothing to do with the GRA-as-is or -as-reformed. That's EqA2010

Moving on

Amendment 104 and grouping. Foysol Choudhury to speak on these amendments. These amendments are nothing more than the "For the avoidance of doubt noting in this Act affects [EqA2020]". In this case the definition of man and woman. Pointless and a waste of time

Next

Amendment 37 and grouping. Pam Duncan-Glancy speaking for the amendment. Yet again another Avoidance of doubt [EqA2010]. This one is slightly interesting as Pam Duncan-Glancy is arguing that this is to tackle the phony culture war. In fact, it won't. It'll just be seized on by the GC legal illiterati and twisted out of all sensible (yet alone legal) meaning

Moving on and next

Amendment 151 and grouping. Claire Baker to speak on this amendment. The amendment would require Scottish Ministers to produce guidance on the interaction between this Bill and s.22 of the GRA2004 and schedule 9 of EqA2010. Again, pointless

Next

Minister responds. Speaks for amendment 37 (the one that Pam Duncan-Glancy claims will tackle the phony culture war but will in fact just provide ammo for it. Dear Minister, let experienced trans activists, especially those of us who are also political brief you on these. We're actually good at it, which cis people almost never are)

Speaks against all other amendments in the group, noting that some are outside legislative competence

16/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

(to give you an idea of how preposterous the arguments being put forward are; the GRA2004 has been around for 18 years and trans people have been using separate- and single- sex spaces of our choice that entire time whether we have a GRC or not and have been doing so lawfully. Indeed, if we seek to medically transition under the NHS GIC-system then we're required to use those spaces to prove we're "genuinely trans"

And prior to 2004? We still used separate- and single- sex spaces of our without a GRC, perfectly lawfully, and again were required to if we sought to medically transition under the NHS)

Oh Goddess, and now Pauline McNeill is trying to claim that unlawful direct discrimination against trans women is entirely lawful because it isn't required to find a less discriminatory way to provide a service to a trans woman apart from excluding her from a women's service. Nope. And good luck trying to argue that in court because you're going to lose and lose hard

Meeting suspended briefly because of what appears to be disturbance from the gallery. Don't do that people. It's pointless and annoying both

15/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

And onto Amendment 23 and their grouping, being spoken on by Rachael Hamilton. May G_d grant me the fortitude to get through her inane drivellings

This amendment seeks to clarify that obtaining a GRC doesn't affect the workings or protections of the EqA2010, especially within the definition of sex, or woman or man

Of course it doesn't. The Equality Act 2010 is a matter not devolved to Holyrood but is reserved to Westminster. It is impossible for this Bill to change the protections of EqA2010

And that's where I'll leave it because it's just a massive dog-whistle

Amendment 25 and grouping spoken to by Daniel Johnson. These amendments seek to force Scottish Ministers to issue guidance on the interaction of the reformed GRA with the EqA2010

That's a simple report to make. No change compared to GRA2004

Right, next.

Amendment 74 and grouping. Pam Gosal to speak. Prediction. Dog-whistles galore, bring on the Dalmations

Yup. 'How does the reform of the GRA impact on single- and separate- sex spaces

Answer: It doesn't. Access to single- and separate- sex services is based on the current existing system of self-ID that's independent of whether a person has a GRC or not. Moving the GRC system to one of self-Declaration doesn't change any of that because, duh, having a GRC doesn't impact on the self-ID aspect of EqA2010

Amendment 101 and grouping. Pauline McNeill speaking to the amendment which seeks to produce guidance on the impact of having a GRC and it's impact on EqA2010

Again, it doesn't impact on EqA2010

14/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

An intervener brings up the 'genuine concerns' of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Minister points out that the EHRC still hasn't provided evidence for any of their 'genuine concerns'. Hardly a surprise given that the 'genuine concerns' are a pile of hogwash as believable as an honest MAGA asshat

And the transphobes are still droning on about their 'genuine concerns' that have been rebutted over and over again. Once again showing that TERFs and the GC hate mob is fundamentally incapable of learning anything that doesn't conform to their hate, or anything new for that matter

And finally onto votes after a colossal waste of time

Amendment 1 pressed to a vote and falls 3–4

Meeting suspended for a comfort break

13/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

As some will know and others won't I had GRS on June 30th at St George's Hospital, Tooting, London

It's a big hospital in a diverse area in one of the most diverse cities in the world

The ward I was in had both patients and staff from across a huge range of the religious spectrum

I was placed in the women's bay because duh. Do you know how many women complained? None

Do you know how many women were happy enough to chat with me while we were wandering around or in bed? All of them

Seriously. This 'Faith Demands Transphobia' is such a freakin' canard, not least because those who hold such beliefs tend to self-exclude themselves from settings where a trans person may be anyway. And long may they continue to do so for as long as they can't cope being around trans or non-binary people

And for those reading this wondering why this stance? If a religious person has a problem with trans or non-binary people, but we don't have a problem with religious people (and as a group we don't as we're as religiously diverse as cis people are) then that's a Them problem, not an Us problem. It's up to the transphobes to sort their sh*t out, rather than expecting us to do their work for them

12/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Speaks against Amendment 1 and groupings for the obvious reason that a GRC or the GRA-as-now and -as-reformed doesn't affect the functioning of EqA2010

Speaks against Amendment 76 as it attracted so many hounds the business of the Committee cannot continue as the chamber is flooded with scritches, bleps, and much excited fetching of sticks and balls

(Pam Gosal is being a massively transphobic concern troll right now, hence me not covering it)

Minister speaks against Amendments 139 and 140 as she is yet again forced to point out the bleeding obvious — a GRC has nothing to do with accessing transition-related healthcare (Personal Note: and the only reason the current Act requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is because a bunch of cis people decided a bunch of cis-based rules to force trans people to live by cis-expectations of who we must be and to punish us for daring to push back against the systemic oppression that living within a cis-supremacist brings)

(Political Queer Theory FTW from me there \o/)

Oh Goddess, the transphobes on the Committee are back onto religion and how it must allow transphobia in medicine

No

Let me explain in the next post (Oot! as it is on Octodon, which I love)

11/

ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Quick aside on this. This amendment again seeks to reinvent the wheel. The occupational exemptions provided by EqA2010 have been in place for 12 years alongside s22, etc, of the Gender Recognition Act 2004. It's already known how these two things work alongside each other, not least because very few orgs have ever found it necessary to actually use the occupational exemptions

Minister responds. Agrees with members that it's important to review and report on the functioning of the legislation and that function already exists in the Bill. Speaks in favour of a single review that covers a range of issues. Speaks in favour of a 3 year period for that

Speaks in favour in terms of moving this forward to a Stage 3 discussion of the reporting requirements of the review of the functioning of the Act within 3 years, agreeing to the principles of Amendment 145, Amendment 136 (the reporting of the change of numbers in regards to the housing of trans prisoners in the estate), 156 in principle, but with the caveat that the amendment as drafted enters into areas that are not within the purview of Holyrood to legislate on,

Speaks against the reporting requirements of Amendment 146 as it's too broad given the small numbers of individuals involved in terms of them having a GRC. Interesting argument from Pam Duncan-Glancy here in that it's necessary to have these reporting requirements as it acts as an anti-TERF measure. I'm . . . not so sure on that, especially in regards to the 3 year period before a report is produced. That's 3 years for transphobes to flood all available bandwidth with the same minute number of salient exemplars of bad actors so that by the time the report comes out saying there isn't an issue the same transphobes can say, "But you haven't properly looked at the issues we've raised!!!" sliding over the fact that the salient exemplars used are almost all not Scottish

Also speaks against Amendment 152 as s22 of GRA2004 isn't being amended. Also speaks against Amendment 80 and 81

10/

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Amendment 140 and grouping spoken to by Rachael Hamilton. Again speaking to the canard that there's a link between getting a GRC and access to transition-related healthcare

Both speakers keep looping back to how this can be used to how this is to handle the already long waiting lists to access transition-related healthcare (it isn't) and how more people getting a GRC will increase those waiting lists (it won't. If anything it will reduce the number, if only by slightly, as it removes the need for somebody to get a diagnosis from a Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) before they can get a GRC)

Amendment 143 and groupings to be spoken on by Tess White. Again, a transphobic dog-whistle one demanding that Scottish Ministers carry out reports on how the Act impacts on matters that are actually the purview of EqA2010 and nothing to do with the Gender Recognition Act and that the Gender Recognition Act as reformed cannot go into effect in law until Ministers commission a series of lengthy evidence-gathering for reports that say, "GRA has nothing to do with the EqA2010. Get a f***ing grip and try a new argument you utter transphobic pillock)

Amendment 145 and groupings being spoken to by Pam Duncan-Glancy. These amendments would require Parliament to consider how the process of the reformed GRA is working. Also adds a provision requiring Parliament consider how non-binary people are to be included within recognition. That last is a duplication of effort as a working group is due to report in Spring 2023 on this

Amendment 156 and groupings spoken to by Claire Baker. This amendment is in regards to the function of occupational exemptions (which, again, is an EqA2010 matter, not a GRA matter). Claims to argue that it is necessary because the disclosure of a trans person's gender history in regards of having a GRC is a criminal offense unless it is necessary to do so

9/

#ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

I'm going to quickly go back and cover why I'm opposed to Jamie Greene's first set of amendments

Aggravation factors are already a matter recognised in law. And as pointed out courts can already take that into account when determining sentencing

So why oppose this specific amendment? Simple. This Bill isn't setup or designed to cover aggravation of criminal offences. Evidence wasn't gathered to specifically cover this

Codifying aspects of how the judiciary already functions into statutory legislation should only be done in legislation that is specifically stated to do that in part or in whole in terms of that piece of legislation. Cramming it into a different piece of legislation is, frankly, bad legislating

8/

#ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Amendment 1 and grouping amendments moved by Brian Whittle and debate starts on them

These amendments are the usually transphobic canards about access to sport and how every man's going to get a GRC and start playing on women's teams, blah, blah, blah

Get in the bin, not covering anything more on that from this transphobic and interphobic prick

(This is because access to sport is covered by EqA2010 not the GRA or GRA as reformed)

Amendment 76 and other amendments in the group. Pam Gosal called to speak, but as she's a Tory it's a good bet it's going to be yet more dog-whistles

'Something, something, 'Won't somebody think of the children!!! But the delicate flowers of womanhood!!! But Muslims and Jews!!!!!'

Yeah, as to that? By and large I've found the Muslims I meet to be more accepting of who I am right off the bat, and by and large the secular and liberal Jewish communities like-wise

So enough of that and moving on

Jamie Greene coming in with a damning question for his own party colleague, asking if she expects trans medical professionals to divulge they're trans to every doctor and patient at every opportunity. Starting to rewarm to Greene for him asking that point

Amendment 136 and grouping being spoken to by Jamie Greene. This amendment is another amendment relating to his previous one around prisons. This amendment would require the reporting of numbers on change of numbers of where trans people are housed within the estate

Amendment 139 and grouping up for debate. These are Sarah Boyack's amendments which would require the impact of this Bill on access to healthcare [[eyeroll.gif]]. In essence it's an attempt to get a Cass review into Scotland

Transphobic AF and I'm not going to cover it any further

7/

#ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Intervention from Pauline McNeill pointing out that Greene's amendment doesn't define 'fraudulently obtaining a GRC' means and asks Jamie Greene to clarify that for future argument to include that within the Bill

Maggie Chapman speaking against the amendment. Points out that there's no evidence from other countries where similar self-declaration procedures exist to change one's sex in law that doing so has led to the obtaining of a change of sex being used to commit or make easier to commit a crime. Also points out that courts already have the ability to take into account all the factors involved in the matter of a criminal offence

Minister speaks in favour of the amendment (Personal Note: And this is why it's necessary to point out that the SNP is a socially conservative party. Conservatives wrapped in a Saltire, as it were, at time)

We get a bit of discussion around what counts as fraudulently obtaining a GRC

Rachael Hamilton again bringing up the canard that 'living in their acquired gender' requires a definition within the BIll

Minister points out that this has already been defeated, the amendments failed, and that such definitions already exist in the GRA2004 and the guidelines around it

Jamie Greene wraps up and presses the matter to a vote

Amendment 133 moves to a vote. Amendment passes 6—1

Amendment 14 moves to a vote and falls 1–6. Amusingly Sue Webber's wrecking amendment lost one additional vote since last week, despite Amendment 14 doing exactly the same as Amendments 3–13 that failed at vote 2–5 (the Amendments would have removed the relevant sections from the Bill)

Section 14 agreed to

Amendment 135 moved to a vote. Amendment falls 3–4

6/

#ApocolypseMoon9726

#ApocolypseMoon9726 #GRAReform #ScotGov #Holyrood #GenderRecogntionAct

Amendment 133 now up. Moved by Jamie Greene and debate starts on it

(Personal Note: This is interesting in the fact that Jamie Greene was only 1 of 2 Tories that voted in favour of the Bill at Stage 1 but was very clear that his support was conditional on him getting his own way on everything. Nothing quite like a cis man deciding people shouldn't have rights because somebody said "No" to him)

Ugh. Already I can't stand the way that Jamie tries to argue things. Takes others words and then weasels them to make his own argument. If you have an argument use your own words and stand by them, or keep your lips pressed together and let somebody with more courage and willingness to have their stance be on the record speak instead

This Amendment is around 'genuine concerns' that simplifying the process 'allows bad faith actors to change their sex'. The Amendment would make it an aggravating offence to falsely claim a GRC for the purposes of committing a crime. I . . . this is utter b*ll*cks. There is no precedence for this and, frankly, getting a GRC doesn't make committing any crime easier or any sentence more lenient. F*cking pillock

And that's where I'll leave my coverage of his amendment as I'm running out of asterisks

5/

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