Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1324 followers · 5169 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Here we see several things coming together, but the one I want to emphasize is that this is an explicit statement that would like to help train models on (potentially) stolen data.

It's again hard to claim that you are ethically neutral middleware when this is a stated and expressed goal.

I'd also like to highlight exactly what "open" might mean in this context, specifically with this paper on the topic, which was just published: papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf

#haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1322 followers · 5167 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Let's not mince words.

It is the creator saying outright that they were trying to solve their problem of being unable to get people to work at a mass scale.

This is why I'm describing what they are doing with language as a "shell game."

_cannot_ be ethically neutral middleware when the author's stated purpose in building and running the system is to make it so that people can avoid needing to pay artists for their work.

There are other problems, but start there.

6/

#forexposure #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1323 followers · 5163 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Specifically, I am of the view that if they are accepted then will become complicit in the behavior of .

I _don't_ think that the Nivenly board sees it that way, but as an engineer _I_ would. I could draw a line between "us" and "them" if .net was run by someone who was not a lead maintainer on

This would not be as big of deal, except that I feel like there's a bit of a shell game going on when it comes to responsibility, and that's part of my core objection

4/

#nivenly #aihordedotnet #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1323 followers · 5157 posts · Server hachyderm.io

It seems likely that if joins it would give them a seat on the nivenly senate.

That is not something I personally want to see.

#haidra #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1317 followers · 5097 posts · Server hachyderm.io

While I think that the situation with is one where a call in is appropriate and a situation where I and others can do a lot of good ( hachyderm.io/@hrefna/110896943 ), I think the situation with is a lot less so.

Even if I knew nothing at all about the situation or about haidra I would be heavily discouraged by their answer.

I think that's a Problem™ and their attitude tells me I can't help once they join.

So I will be voting against them joining. I encourage others to do the same.

#nivenly #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1323 followers · 4982 posts · Server hachyderm.io

My thoughts on this are that the situation with illustrates a good opportunity to course correct. That they didn't think about these externalities is a problem, but it is also a _fixable_ problem and something that we can likely make sure is always on their radar going forward.

If this interests you then let's talk about what that might look like!

#haidra #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1311 followers · 4931 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Basically: If you _are_ that person and looking to build that base of support please let me know! Especially if you have done this before. There's a lot of potential here and I'd love to see it realized.

But I'm tired and it's a lot of work to do it right.

#nivenly #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1310 followers · 4917 posts · Server hachyderm.io

If I had the time and the energy I would be doing things with properly:

* Paying into it
* Going around and looking for other nivenly members and talking to them about and
* Talking to non-members and building a base of support for ethical development and trying to get them to join

As it is I have somewhere I would rather be focusing if I had the energy for this: my union.

I hope someone will take up the torch there with nivenly and help them onto a good path.

#nivenly #haidra #generativeAI

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1310 followers · 4906 posts · Server hachyderm.io

See, this is the kind of thing that makes me think that is just not going to be willing to take the ethics of this seriously and that will not be able to sway them to a better course.

#haidra #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1272 followers · 4880 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Given that we have environmental impact analyses for:

* Bitcoin
* Ethereum
* Cars
* Video Games
* Home pesticide use

Color me dubious that it is "infeasible" to do even a rough order magnitude estimate for

#haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1273 followers · 4878 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Okay, I've put these questions on and together into a slightly more coherent single post on the forums for discussion: github.com/nivenly/community/d

#haidra #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1273 followers · 4872 posts · Server hachyderm.io

If your fundamental claim is: "We just built an API, it is up to others how they use it!"

Then you have:

* Deliberate and direct integrations with a set of highly problematic systems.

* A lot of your advertised use cases are with those problematic systems.

* The main deployment of your API is for said systems.

* Your main use of your system on social media accounts is of said systems.

It is hard to simply wave away your support of the problematic system.

#haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

mnl mnl mnl mnl mnl · @mnl
767 followers · 491 posts · Server hachyderm.io

This is in direct reaction to the comments on the github discussion github.com/nivenly/community/d is very much "but we're not training the models or gathering training data, we're innocent".

I'm following @hrefna thoughts about the subject, which are much more eloquently put than mine: hachyderm.io/@hrefna/110833561

#haidra #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1271 followers · 4861 posts · Server hachyderm.io

8. What does 's involvement wrt its mission of "sustainable governance to open source projects and communities around the globe and supports the maintainers’ independent oversight of their projects" mean for ? What does Haidra hope to get out of this? How about nivenly? (Nivenly Mission Statement).

9. What lessons does nivenly's board take from this announcement and the response? What actions will they take as a result going forward?

6/*

#nivenly #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1271 followers · 4860 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Continuing.

7. I view it as a mistake to think of this as "all or nothing." Are there good intermediary steps that cold be considered by and such that haidra could be grown into a better project over time as a series of targets? For example, associating without making them a "Nivenly project" until some set of criteria are met? Providing some resources but limiting fiscal ones until other criteria or benchmarks are achieved? (ACM 3.2, 3.5)

5/

#nivenly #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1269 followers · 4859 posts · Server hachyderm.io

6. Given the structure of there are significant environmental concerns in both the training and execution of models under the . Can benchmarks be set to reduce this environmental impact over time? Would the Haidra project be amenable to treating this as a high priority and to hold themselves accountable to a reasonable schedule here? (ACM 1.1, 1.2, 3.2)

More later as I think of them, time to grab dinner.

4/*

#haidra #aihorde

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1269 followers · 4858 posts · Server hachyderm.io

5. While asserts that individuals are not identifiable ( github.com/Haidra-Org/AI-Horde ) there do not seem to be strong safeguards in place around this that I can ascertain. Would the parties be open to an audit and considering any privacy risks identified here as P0 priorities to fix, even if it degrades as a service or renders it infeasible? Is this something that could invest in? (ACM 1.2, 1.6, 1.7, 2.4)

3/

#haidra #aihorde #nivenly

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1269 followers · 4857 posts · Server hachyderm.io

3. Relatedly: What would the members of think of codifying a series of ethical principles around the use of generative AI? Would and be willing to abide by them? (ACM 1.2, 3.4, 4.1).

4. Currently Haidra appears to be taking the "I'm a sign, not a cop" to the problem of kudos being exchanged for money. Would Haidra and Nivenly be open to reexamining this strategy and determining if either other mechanisms might be more robust or if it can be secured (ACM 1.2, 2.5)

2/

#nivenly #haidra #aihorde

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1269 followers · 4856 posts · Server hachyderm.io

Putting some of my thoughts here with respect to and , which I may formalize later into questions for the discussion:

1. Would Haidra be willing to commit to zero use or advertising of models/workers that are trained on data sourced from copyrighted material that does not include the holder's permission, irrespective of legal fair use qualifiers? (ACM 1.6).

2. Has an analysis been done on the environmental impact of ? What would this look like? (ACM 1.1, 1.2)

1/

#haidra #nivenly #aihorde

Last updated 1 year ago

Hrefna (DHC) · @hrefna
1263 followers · 4825 posts · Server hachyderm.io

I am not as much of a hardliner on as many people I know, but I care deeply about data provenance and data stewardship (as you know if you've followed me for any length of time).

Seeing @nivenly's messaging, the (somewhat mealy mouthed, tbh) response from those involved with , and jumping directly into such a dubious field without a guiding set of ethical principles is deeply concerning and disheartening to me.

It's a group with a lot of promise, but this is not good.

#generativeAI #haidra

Last updated 1 year ago