@FantasticalEconomics @jwcph @breadandcircuses

For what it's worth, I think JW is the one making the most coherent points here, by quite a large margin.

Whatever theoretical claim can be made about technology bettering things is dim when seen in context because it's really clear that markets love an externality, and so if someone bent on growth can say that it's possible that somehow that growth can be compensated for, then that compensation becomes the responsibility of someone else or the market. The problem is that unless people are held to account in that, the theoretical balance that Kyle is claiming has about zero chance of happening. And we have far too little time to be waiting on such miracles.

In practical terms, which is all we can focus on in the extraordinarily limited time humanity has left on earth, it's more correct to say that the theoretical options Kyle sees are just smokescreen that will enable continued ills. Maybe your intent is better, Kyle, but if so it's blinding to to a practical effect that is likely VERY negative.

The problem is simple: We have an addiction to growth. We are practiced at it. We enjoy it. We have developed habits around it. But it is killing us. None of that will be fixed by creating theoretical discussions about how there's a world in which reform is not necessary. There might be such a world. But if we are not making plans to get there, taking steps aggressively that get us there within our window of healthy life, then the theoretical case is irrelevant. We're addicts who have rationalized not quitting.

But also, with every crank of the winch, creating more reliance on tech, we also create potential energy waiting to snap if something goes wrong, something slips, and the system unwinds. If an acre of land can support 10 people but we find tech to have it support 100, that's great but if that acre of land is lost to a storm, let's say, then 100 people will starve, not 10. Every time we rely on tech to help us live past capacity, we up the stakes that way. They noticed a similar thing in airplanes as they figured out how to pack them tighter and tighter: when a crash happens, more die.

So I decided at some point that the test of carrying capacity of the planet is not the steady state on a good day kind of measure, but rather the ability of that system to withstand crashes, the temporary unavailability of parts of it, etc. We are not prepared for disaster. Shareholder capitalism treats robustness and sustainability as economic inefficiencies to be removed because they generally don't show on the quarterly bottom line except as an expenditure with no benefit. It's hard to quantify a counterfactual.

We need metrics not of Gross Domestic Product but of Gross Domestic Sustainability, of getting ourselves to a system that is robust against the kinds of catastrophes that are potentially forseeable to encounter. Economic, political, and weather/climate. A company or product that does not measure up as highly sustainable and robust against potential problems should be taxed very heavily so that the state can make preparations in lieu, so that there is no way for a company to make money by shortcutting sustainability.

Presently the reason people like Trump so much is the sugar high he creates in businesses by allowing them to pretend to profit by eliminating safety and sustainability and other environmental "red tape" that he sees as superfluous. This serves a culture in which profits are regularly harvested from companies into private bank accounts that cannot be drawn back out of when we see what a horror these profiteers have left us. They are racing to suck all the value out of the world before it collapses.

For a brief parable on this, see my 2009 essay "Hollow Support". It's not about climate, but about how markets under shareholder capitalism like to invest and what the consequences of that are:

http://netsettlement.blogspot.com/2009/03/hollow-support.html

#Capitalism #ShareholderCapitalism #HollowSupport #Climate #Consumption #Growth #DeGrowth #Economics #Sustainability #Environment